Most of our lives are spent either asleep or awake and working. With both workplace burnout and sleep insufficiency on the rise, for some it can become an exhausting cycle of sacrificing sleep for work, then working more to make up for lost productivity. It is essential to address the major impacts these topics have on one’s health. Listen in as Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan discusses these disorders and how they affect mental wellness with special guests from Unmind, a workplace wellbeing platform, Dr. Nick Taylor, CEO and Co-Founder of Unmind, and Steve Peralta, Chief Wellbeing Officer and Co-Founder. The guests offer their insights from both a medical perspective and lived experience.
Most of our lives are spent either asleep or awake and working. With both workplace burnout and sleep insufficiency on the rise, for some it can become an exhausting cycle of sacrificing sleep for work, then working more to make up for lost productivity. It is essential to address the major impacts these topics have on one’s health. Listen in as Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan discusses these disorders and how they affect mental wellness with special guests from Unmind, a workplace wellbeing platform, Dr. Nick Taylor, CEO and Co-Founder of Unmind, and Steve Peralta, Chief Wellbeing Officer and Co-Founder. The guests offer their insights from both a medical perspective and lived experience. Learn more by tuning in at listenwellpodcast.com or watch the full video episode here.
Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes and is not intended to replace discussions with your healthcare provider. All decisions regarding your care must be made with a healthcare professional, considering the unique characteristics of your personal situation. The opinions expressed are the opinions of the individuals recorded and not the opinions of Viatris. Individuals featured in this podcast may have participated in the past as or may be current members of an advisory group for Viatris.
Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan (00:16 - 00:37)
Hello and welcome to Listen Well! I'm Doctor Mo Alsuwaidan. Today we'll talk about a topic that's very important to each and every one of us. Most of us spend more than half our lives asleep, and many of us spend more than half of our waking hours at work. And so today, we'll talk about how these two issues are interrelated.
Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan (00:37 - 01:12)
And we'll talk about the issue of workplace burnout, which the World Health Organization has actually classified in recent years as an important health related condition that's worthy of focus of study and of treatment. We're very lucky to have two amazing individuals who work at an organization called Unmind. Doctor Nick Taylor is a clinical psychologist and CEO and co-founder of Unmind, and Steve Peralta is co-founder and chief wellbeing officer. Welcome to both of you. So listen well.
Dr. Nick Taylor (01:12 - 01:23)
Thank you so much for having us.
Steve Peralta
Thank you.
Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan
So what I want to start with is just an explanation. What is Unmind and how did the concept come about? Let's start with you, Nic.
Dr. Nick Taylor (01:23 - 01:48)
So, let me give you a bit of a story as to how it came about. So I'm a clinical psychologist, as you said in your introduction. And, I was working in the National Health Service in the UK, leading health care teams, to the local community. I was also lecturing in mental health at universities. And prior to those experiences, I was working in frontline care as a support worker in a mental health charity and a volunteer with the Crisis Helpline.
Dr. Nick Taylor (01:48 - 02:08)
So I've been in the space for a long time, and I had just become really frustrated with how reactive mental health care is. In other words, we wait for people to become sick before we give support. And I became really interested in, well, what would it look like to be more preventative in mental health care to help people?
Dr. Nick Taylor (02:08 - 02:26)
Much earlier on, when problems start to focus? I became really fascinated by that. And and I went on holiday to South Africa and through total chance, it was introduced to Steve, who had reached similar conclusions but from a different perspective. And, Steve, why don't you tell that part of the story and then we can share what online does?
Steve Peralta (02:26 - 02:50)
Yeah. So so for me, I'd been in the the wellbeing space for about 12, 13 years, but a few years into that, what actually put me onto the workplace wellbeing path was my stepfather, collapsed, we thought was a heart attack. It turned out to be just literally the effects of ongoing chronic stress and strain at work caused by a toxic culture and a very, I guess, toxic leader.
Steve Peralta (02:50 - 03:10)
And that I found, horrifying, distressing. We heard that two of his colleagues had died by suicide around the same time. So it was definitely a problem right. And that sort of it was a little bit of a fire to me in terms of refocusing my I was a wellbeing. I was a coach and a consultant refocusing my attention to the workplace.
Steve Peralta (03:10 - 03:36)
And then I guess I started focusing on how I could help people in the workplace and actually scale that. And then serendipitously met Nick about late 2015. And as Nick said, we both reached the conclusion that there was change needed within the workplace. And that I guess some disruption of the status quo so that people could get the support they need and that we could create more mentally healthy workplace cultures.
Dr. Nick Taylor (03:36 - 03:51)
So, so when we when we first started thinking about our mind around a kitchen table, what we really felt passionate about was, well, how do we make mental health and wellbeing a priority that is focused on in the same way we approach dentistry? You know, we brush our teeth twice a day. What can we do to get mental health into a similar place?
Dr. Nick Taylor (03:51 - 04:10)
How do we help break the stigma? So to tell the story, our mental health, it's not just a set of problems when people become unwell. Mental health is actually this hugely wonderful part of our lives that is a human potential topic. So we're interested in that. We also are deeply committed to science as individuals, and we wanted the company to to really have that in its DNA and measurements.
Dr. Nick Taylor (04:10 - 04:39)
And science is really what we do and has always been what we do. We wanted to scale up what we were doing with digital tools. So make a very digitally innovative company. And we wanted to just focus in on the workplace. And those things have remained true today. And, and, mine now is a company that supports organizations to transform the culture around mental health and wellbeing, and also company that gives access to tools to leaders and employees so that everybody can get the right care at the right time for their mental health and wellbeing.
Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan (04:39 - 05:00)
You know what I love about your story is, the difference between acute medicine and public health. And so, you know, medicine or whether it's psychiatry, psychology usually is at the point of the individual and a treatment of an acute condition where you're taking more of a public health model and blending that with, acute medicine in a way.
Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan (05:00 - 05:21)
So acute medicine is individual and immediate, whereas public health is more, large scale society and prevention.
Dr. Nick Taylor
Yeah. And so, yeah, I mean, I love that that's a lovely observation. And I think for me, it's a little bit born out of, my being. I'm a, I'm a British citizen. I've grown up in the UK, but with the healthcare system is free access to care.
Dr. Nick Taylor (05:22 - 05:39)
And any country where there's free access to care, wants to fundamentally have a holistic approach and thinks about how can we create environments where they reduce the likelihood of people getting sick because it reduces the burden on the health care system. So I've always been raised in my professional identity to think about the impact of the system on the individual.
Dr. Nick Taylor (05:39 - 05:56)
And and we're deeply passionate about that. So we we talk about metaphorically, like, if you take a seed of a plant and you put that seed in the wrong soil, with the wrong water in the wrong light, that seed cannot grow to be the plant, that it has the potential to be run. And an employee is not really a human being.
Dr. Nick Taylor (05:56 - 06:12)
It's not that different. If you put it in a human being, in a toxic environment, they cannot reach their full potential. Yeah, any living thing needs to be in an environment that can enable them to grow in the right way. And we believe very much that, that that's that threat in relation to mental health and wellbeing. I love that metaphor.
Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan (06:11 - 06:23)
I love that metaphor. Can we get into some specifics? So when one mind works with an organization, what kind of tools are you, deploying? And how do you, you know, on a day to day, how do you help?
Dr. Nick Taylor (06:23 – 06:40)
So it's really thinking about the whole organization approach. So we help leaders from the executive through to all leaders in an organization, both understand the topic of mental health and wellbeing, align around it and make sure that they're leading by example in relation to the topic.
Dr. Nick Taylor (06:40 - 07:02)
We also help organizations on an aggregated, anonymized basis understand what the impact the mental illness is having on the business and what the opportunity of mental health is to the business. So leaders and executives, it's about engaging them in the topic, educating them in the topic and giving them the data to truly make the case as to why it's a strategic priority.
Dr. Nick Taylor (07:02 - 07:24)
And then for employees, we give access to, the right care at the right time. And what that means is, as a digital product, that every employee can access within that digital, platform, they can access tools to measure their mental health, which we've built with world leading universities like, Cambridge University. And that allows you to really see how you're doing.
Dr. Nick Taylor (07:24 - 07:54)
And it also has over 700 hours of really high quality video and audio content. Covering a whole range of topics that, again, the science behind that's really great, made with some of the world's leading thought leaders. And then finally, every employee can get access to, a practitioner, talking therapist, a coach to speak about what's going on in their mental health and in their life. So really, it's it's delivering the right care at the right time in a totally frictionless way.
Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan (07:54 – 08:09)
That's a great summary. And so, Steve, as Chief Wellbeing officer, how do we use those tools? In a way, as Nick said earlier, brush your teeth twice a day. How do we use those tools in a preventative rather than, fixing the problem after it happens?
Steve Peralta (08:09 - 08:28)
Yeah. I mean, it's a it's an important shift that's happened over the years. I think we were leading the way back in 2016. And thankfully, this has become more of a a public awareness and especially within organizations, the way you do it. I think, first of all, is that this has to be, understood and role model from the top.
Steve Peralta (08:29 - 08:50)
So that's why, you know, we it's essential that we engage senior leadership in this, you need to have the, right. Infrastructure will be needs to be seen as a strategic priority within that organization so that it's not just an afterthought or a tick box. It needs to be embedded into how organizations think about, their business.
Steve Peralta (08:50 - 09:23)
You mean for us, for example, it's a KPI alongside some of the more traditional business metrics. And when you recognize and I think the way to actually see it as a proactive preventative focus is recognize the relationship it has to performance both at the individual level, team level, organizational level. And so that's really important for us is to show the link between those two. Then it becomes something that people proactively start to focus on. So really seeing it as a as a performance topic as well.
Leah Evert (09:23 - 09:50)
Hi I'm Leah Evert, I'm the senior director of Global Employee experience Engagement and Wellbeing at Viatris. We are so fortunate that we work in an organization where prioritizing health of people runs deep in our veins. The Elevate program and our commitment to mental health has been very tightly linked to our mission to empower people worldwide to live healthier at every stage of life.
Leah Evert (09:50 - 10:21)
Elevate has been such a great way to reinforce our company's commitment to that, not just our physical health, but also supporting the total employees experience around wellbeing and what makes wellbeing important to them, whether that's connecting and finding, meeting with their their colleagues or their families, or prioritizing development or supporting financial well-being or connecting with coworkers, all of those areas really contribute to a healthy life.
Leah Evert (10:21 - 10:52)
Over the past several years, since I've been working at Viatris, I have noticed a very unique opportunity to bring my real and whole self to to work. And I think that that's because our organization creates a very safe space in which people can be their true selves when they come to work, and that includes the understanding that mental health is a spectrum, meaning that all of us have mental health every day and we're all feeling differently every day.
Leah Evert (10:52 - 11:21)
The Viatris provides a community that supports the ups and downs of normal life, and that's great. A great forum by which the people at the Viatris can talk broadly about how they're feeling on a day to day basis. They can talk about their struggles. They can talk about the issues and concerns they may have during the day. That openness is very unique at Viatris, and the elevate program helps to reinforce our commitment to a community of supporting mental well-being.
Leah Evert (11:21- 11:35)
Wherever you are on that spectrum, and because of our mission, we're able to prioritize that in a very real and meaningful way.
Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan (11:35 - 11:52)
You know, listeners and viewers have Listen Well. We'll remember early on in our first season, we did a great episode on sleep, and I noticed, when going through your website and your materials, that there is a big focus on sleep. Why is that the case? Why is sleep such a big focus of the work you do?
Dr. Nick Taylor (11:52 - 12:11)
Nick I mean, when you speak about the relationship between sleep and mental health, well, when we think about someone's mental health or the overall state of health, we think about, there are biological factors that impact on how someone is. There are psychological factors that impact on how someone is, and there are social factors that impact on how someone is.
Dr. Nick Taylor (12:11 - 12:32)
And those three things are often referred to as the bio psychosocial model of health. And really have to think about all of them together to understand how somebody can be optimally primed to be successful and thriving within biology, how someone is sleeping, what food they're eating, how well hydrated they are, how much exercise they're doing. Those things are so influential.
Dr. Nick Taylor (12:32 – 13:11)
And we know from all of the science, how important sleep is in our ability to show up and be our best selves. And and actually, we don't really need science to tell us that we all individually know what it feels like when we haven't slept well versus how it feels when we have slept well. So sleep is a really important piece. And actually, we live in a world where it's not always terribly easy to get good sleep. So I think a lot of people around the world are finding it really difficult. And, Steve, I know you. You've you've lived experience on this. Perhaps you can talk from that perspective.
Steve Peralta (13:12 – 13:32)
Yeah. So I mean, I'm happy to I want to just say, I know you said we don't need the science, but having some science as a reference point is really important. I wanted to mention something that we ran, we ran an RCT with 300 working adults in the UK. So randomized controlled trial. Yeah, randomized controlled trial. Two groups who used our tools and our tools are sleep trails, sleep sounds. Relaxation practices that we've developed and so on and so on. Versus a control group that didn't just.
Steve Peralta (13:33 - 14:01)
So the four weeks that the two groups that used our tools, experienced, on average, 3.5 hours more sleep per week, and that translated to reduction in symptoms of anxiety and depression. And and this is where the performance link comes in. Again. Close to 50% reduction in presenteeism in the workplace. So again, it's it's showing just the power of getting good sleep.
Steve Peralta (14:01 - 14:25)
Right. And I know firsthand, as Nick was suggesting there, just how, much of a factor that can have in one's life. I experienced ongoing insomnia for almost ten years. Wow. And it was extremely challenging. Yeah. I experience some of the common, effects there are of, you know, reduced capacity to think, well, my emotional balance was almost non-existent.
Steve Peralta (14:25 – 15:02)
So a lot of, you know, mood dysregulation and the like, I experience health issues because of it. I unfortunately didn't see a sleep specialist. I didn't understand how to approach my sleeping problems at the time. And so I experience, for such a prolonged period. But once I ultimately found out or discovered how to address it, which I am happy to share more about, my life literally transformed. And I think without it I would never have found meaning fulfillment, relative degrees of success. It's literally the foundation that we build our lives upon, if you think about it.
Dr. Nick Taylor (15:03 - 15:29)
So essentially, and an interesting point you make as well, isn't it? So just a jump in around the what we would refer to as co-morbidity in health care. But in other words, the presence of two things together, as problems. We know that when people have, anxiety, or depression, there is a greater likelihood that they also have a corresponding sleep problem. So we know that, that it can really be a contributor to some of these mental ill health or mental health challenges. Yeah.
Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan (15:29 - 15:47)
I'd love to get into some of the tools. So maybe, both of you, let's start with Steve. What are some things our listeners can do to improve their sleep, whether you can speak to that from a scientific perspective. Yeah. Some of the things in your, randomized controlled trial and other scientific research or things that have worked for you, for yourself.
Steve Peralta (15:47 - 16:14)
Yeah, sure. Well, something I discovered after the fact, but if I'd known beforehand would have been very useful for me. There's something known as, the Spielman three piece of insomnia model, but it breaks down the causes of insomnia to predisposing factors, precipitating factors and perpetuating factors. And so the predisposing was understanding that that some of us are more prone to sleep problems.
Steve Peralta (16:14 - 16:36)
That could be genetic reasons. We know that females are more prone to it. So there's there'll be various reasons. So some of us are more vulnerable. We have no control over that. Then you have the, precipitating factors, which are incidents or things that happen in our lives that cause us stress and a natural response thereof is a sleep problem, again, something we don't have control of.
Steve Peralta (16:36 - 16:55)
It's a normal thing. Like, you know, stress and sleep don't go too well together. We can't avoid stress in our lives, changing circumstances. So to understand that that will happen sometimes we might experience poor sleep too, like to not worry about it, to to allow that sort of to to happen. And soon after we can find healthy sleep again.
Steve Peralta (16:55 - 17:23)
But what typically happens and this is the third layer and this is where the focus needs to be is these perpetuating factors for very for like with good intentions, we try and address the sleep problem through maladaptive behaviors that might be sleeping at the wrong time, like sleeping in the day might be self-medication. It might, etc. etc. it's those behaviors that start but actually perpetuate the sleep problem and then ultimately create the insomnia.
Steve Peralta (17:23 - 17:49)
Right? And that's where we need to focus to understand what those maladaptive behaviors are, and then to understand what more adaptive behaviors are. And for me, those were consistent sleep times mean this is this is typical stuff. But it really was consistent sleep times. It was healthy lifestyle, exercise, good nutrition, you know, staying hydrated. It was, finding a way to wind down in the evening.
Steve Peralta (17:49 - 18:24)
Really important today. It's natural for me, but I had to actually become quite intentional about it. So it was, you know, breathing practices. It was mindfulness and the like, it was creating boundaries around my work and my evening time. It was reducing the exposure to blue light. You know, we know that that, suppresses melatonin production, increases cortisol production, which is like what you don't want when you're trying to sleep. Right? So those kinds of things, but I think understanding that those maladaptive behaviors or perpetuate insomnia can be quite a, useful insight to have.
Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan (18:24 - 18:37)
You know, what you said about, these practices that you do that have become natural to you? Reminds me, when I was trained in mindfulness, I was taught that, you know, the breathing techniques and the kind of techniques we used to say present is not the ultimate goal.
Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan (18:37 - 18:55)
The ultimate goal is to learn to become present. It's like if you lose the capacity to walk because of an accident, and you need to learn to walk again, you're not just going to tell the patient, ‘Look, walk.’ You need to kind of work on the muscles and then, you know, work on the contraction and then walk with a walker and so on and build towards that.
Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan (18:55 - 19:13)
So in the in the modern world today, with all these distractions around us, to become present, we have to focus on very simple things like the breath. And it's, it's it's interesting hearing that evolution and what you went through because you said something very profound, which is it's become natural to you now because you can walk, if you will.
Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan (19:13 - 19:32)
But what you said about the digital world is very interesting. And maybe I can get, Nick's take on this. So we all have screens around us all the time. And Steve just mentioned that there's a biological effect of these screens. So, what do we do? What how can we manage? Because we can't give up screens completely.
Dr. Nick Taylor (19:32- 19:49)
Yeah, I think it's it's such a kind of like guys topic, isn't it? At the moment. Like, we are all thinking a lot about how much time we spend in front of screens, and we're in a very much digital world. Always-on world. Right. And and how we manage that, I think, is, needs to be quite intentional.
Dr. Nick Taylor (19:49 - 20:09)
And I think building intentional behaviors around it is really valuable. Clearly, when we're working, we need to have our screens. We need to be working on computers for many people around the world. Modern technology in mobile phones is incredibly helpful, for a whole host of reasons. But I think there are some basic habits that we can engage with.
Dr. Nick Taylor (20:09 - 20:31)
For me personally, I never take my phone up into my bedroom. It stays downstairs. I've actually taken the decision recently, to delete any app on my phone that isn't functional. So I don't have any scrolling apps. I don't have any news apps. I have nothing that is naturally going to incline me to just spend time on my phone.
Dr. Nick Taylor (20:32 - 20:47)
I have lots of parking apps. I've got the, Unmind app, I've got, my email for work, but there's nothing that's kind of fun browsing, so it reduces my screen time on the mobile and makes me more intentional about coming to another screen as well. And I and I think this is also around the world at the moment.
Dr. Nick Taylor (20:47 - 21:13)
It's a huge drive towards, childhood free, smartphone free childhood. And I think that we need to really help our young people in the world to build a more healthy relationship with how they're engaging and screen time as well. And not only because screen time itself is addictive, but also because social media is is, so very bad for our mental health and well-being in lots of ways. And so I think really building good health habits around it is important. Right?
Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan (21:13 - 21:32)
It's really a double edged sword because, well, you know, a lot of people have become more aware of mental health issues because of new media. You know, for example, what we're doing today as a as a podcast. But then how do you manage that? It's, you know, everything in moderation, I guess, and then also consuming it at the right time, as Steve said.
Dr. Nick Taylor (21:32- 21:54)
I think that's right. Moderation is right. I think I think the intentionality is something we need to have control of. I think that the the ease, the, the, the ease with which we can fall in the habit of just like looking and looking and looking and looking and looking without being controlled is it needs to be mitigated. We need to be saying, okay, well this is like anything else in my life, how much do I actually want to be doing it?
Dr. Nick Taylor (21:54 - 22:04)
And it's easier said than done. I don't have very many people say, no, I've got this totally under control. Yeah, I think most people are are saying that it's, an issue for them.
Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan (22:04 – 22:19)
You know. But I think even if you slip up, it's it's normal. It's like, you know, eating healthy some every once in a while, you're going to have some fast food. But if you're eating healthy, most of the time, that's going to have an overall impact. And I think the same goes for sleep. 100%.
Dr. Nick Taylor (22:19 – 22:38)
And I think that's, by the way, just to be clear as well, like digital is brilliant, isn't it? Like the digital world has transformed our lives. And there are so many things like, you know, and the ability of un mind to deliver the right at the right time to people around the world is facilitated by digital technology, you know, so we're not we're not we're not anti-technology.
Dr. Nick Taylor (22:38 - 23:06)
We're just saying it's something that, like everything else in life, needs to be in balance with how we engage with it. And then it could go back to the sleep talk topic as well. Steve, you're so eloquent in describing kind of with your expertise, the, the, the kind of how to think about sleep and where we can control and and within the online platform, there are many courses that people can complete on sleep, which we've created with world leading sleep authors, professors and, and academics and clinicians.
Dr. Nick Taylor (23:06 - 23:17)
So, so I'd really encourage people who are struggling with their sleep but want to learn more about their sleep or how to support someone else with their sleep to go in and complete some of those programs in addition to the tools they can use 100%.
Steve Peralta (23:17 – 23:32)
If you're looking for a specific, sleep course on the online platform that really focuses on those like proactive behaviors that we can do some of the, the, the general behaviors outside of addressing insomnia, then optimize or sleep is a is the perfect course on your platform.
Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan (23:32 - 23:47)
And these courses are, lectures or do they have exercises as well. How do they work it?
Steve Peralta
Their learning development programs, along with, tools and exercises and designed by one of the world's leading sleep experts, Professor Jason Ellis.
Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan (23:48 – 24:05)
Right. So it's interactive. You're not just listening to a talk, you're not just listening. They're also exercises and so on. Yeah. That's wonderful. I want to thank you both for being so generous with your time. I've learned a lot. I'm sure our listeners and viewers have learned so much. Can I ask you to leave us with some final thoughts? Maybe we'll start with Steve and then Nick.
Steve Peralta (24:06 – 24:40)
So I guess with respect to what we've been speaking about, especially the the sleep digital, conversation, I think a healthy dose of both self-awareness, like actually creating space to self-reflect and become aware of one's behaviors and how they're affecting one's self, I think is really important along with self-compassion, like you say, you know, we we don't beat ourselves up when we, you know, fail or do things that might not be, ideal for us. Treat ourselves as we would a treat a friend. I think those two things together can can only be good for us. Nick.
Dr. Nick Taylor (24:42 – 24:50)
Thanks. Yeah. For me, I mean, the topic of mental health and well-being is a topic we care so deeply about. And. And we're so proud to be partnered, with Viatris.
Dr. Nick Taylor (24:50 - 25:15)
And one of the things that we believe is that mental health should be celebrated. It is a topic that really is about how we think, how we feel, or the emotions we feel, how we behave, how we relate with other people, how we do our best work and our best ideas come from. It is the most beautiful, wonderful part of being a human being, and we can each take that message out into the world to help destigmatize it.
Dr. Nick Taylor (25:15 - 25:30)
And we can each take the intentional behaviors to engage in our mental health like we do our dental health or our physical health. Because that really allows us to maximize the opportunity, and advantage, in this topic.
Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan (25:30 – 25:39)
You know, I what I find most wonderful about our discussion today is that both of you are so passionate about the work you do, you can feel it in everything you're saying.
Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan (25:39 - 25:59)
And that this work you're doing is a mission. It's not just a job. And, what I'd like to applaud as well is the fact that in partnering with Viatris, that Viatris is also investing in the mental health of, everyone who works there. And so it can only be a win win. And we'd love to see more of that in the world.
Steve Peralta (25:59 - 26:12)
I think prevention, self-compassion, passion, some of these tools can only, make the world a better place in terms of health. So thank you both for your time. Truly appreciated.
Dr. Nick Taylor (26:12 – 26:27)
Well, thank you so much, too. It's been lovely speaking with you. Thank you, thank you.